Dorothy A. Brown: "The Whiteness of Wealth" And The Wealth Gap - The Conversation | ITBP Black Light
Dorothy A. Brown, author of "The Whiteness of Wealth" and Professor at Emory University School of Law joins us to discuss her book, how the American tax system was conceived through Whiteness. How college isn't necessarily the answer to closing the wealth gap for Black America. And much much more.
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Dorothy A. Brown 3:35
thanks so much for having me on. I'm really excited to be here.
Big O 3:39
Oh, no doubt, no doubt. Now, we are familiar with you very familiar with you. But please, for our listeners, for our audience, if you could tell us a little bit more about yourself.
Dorothy A. Brown 3:48
So I'm Dorothy Brown. I'm a tax law professor at Emory law school. And I also teach race, and I'm the author of the whiteness of wealth, which looks at or basically brings my research over the last 25 years to life through the stories of my parents and through the stories of some Atlantans, that shows that when black and white Americans engage in the exact same behavior, tax law subsidizes how white Americans do it, and disadvantage how black Americans do it.
Big O 4:22
Now, the first question I'm going to ask you off Jump Street is you've been doing this, you've been doing this research since 1996, I believe, correct?
Dorothy A. Brown 4:31
Yes. Correct.
Big O 4:32
Yep. What puts you in that space to even say I'm going to do something like this?
Dorothy A. Brown 4:38
That's such a good question, because it really was an accident. So I went into tax law because I assumed tax law had nothing to do with race growing up in the South Bronx. I had I dealt with racism all the time. And I'm like, you know what, I don't want to do it at work. So I'm gonna pick an area of the law that has nothing to do with race. I'm gonna pick tax law. That's the tax law. The only color is green. That's it. Okay, I'm good. Fast forward. I'm a law professor and I'm reading this article by a mentor. And in the article towards the very end, it says, How do you know there isn't a race and tax issue? If you don't look? Yeah, when really race attacks, but the guy who wrote it was a mentor, and he was brilliant. So I said, Well, if he says it, let me let me think about it. So I immediately started thinking about it. And guess what? I found out the IRS doesn't publish statistics by race. So how am I ever going to do this work? If the IRS doesn't give me the statistics? Well, I'm pretty determined. So I just became a detective. Anything I read, I was like, well, could this have a tax implication? Could that have a tax implication? And I stumbled across this civil rights report that said, married black wives contribute 40% of household income and married white wives contribute 29%. Now, everybody else, they're like, well, who cares? But to me, I struck gold. Because what I knew was, because when I did my parents tax returns, I always thought something was wrong. They were paying too much. But I didn't know what when I read that line. It was like, that's why my parents are paying so much in taxes. The law made married black couples, where the husband and wife contributed roughly equal amounts, pay higher taxes when they got married. That's what was wrong with my parents tax returns. White married couples, on the other hand, are more likely to be in single wage earner households, where one spouse works outside and one spouse works inside when they get married. They get a tax cut. When black people get married, no tax cut for us. Right. So that was, you know, I became a detective and I went looking at area after area after area. And no matter where I looked, there was this racial disparity and black people were being disadvantaged. 25 years later, there's
Big EL 7:07
the book. Let me tell you what, I picked up your book, probably within the first say five to six pages. I literally wanted to throw it across the world.
Dorothy A. Brown 7:19
My work here is done.
Big EL 7:22
I was so incredibly angry, literally. And I yeah, my wife was like, Why are you so angry? I was like, Well, let me read this to you. She was like,
Dorothy A. Brown 7:37
the book. And
Big EL 7:39
I was like, we're going to be talking to her soon. And I was like, but it's the part that made me so frustrated is conservatives, black and white for years has used us not married as a reason why we have it. And I'm thinking to myself after reading all your research, like,
Dorothy A. Brown 7:59
hold on, yeah, that's right. Wait a minute, when we do
Big EL 8:02
get married, it doesn't help us out financially.
Unknown Speaker 8:05
That's right.
Big EL 8:06
I was blown away. I'm still very, very perturbed. But the beautiful thing about the book is, when you start talking about your parents, and it was very Matter of fact, type of conversation, like a conversation we're very much having right now. I didn't feel overwhelmed that into like, you were talking over my head. And one of the things that I really enjoyed was the two are very clear. In your terms, such as black and white. There wasn't any ambiguity. I didn't see, you know, people of color multicultural. It was like, No, black folks.
Dorothy A. Brown 8:43
Right? I was like, Yes.
Big EL 8:46
Someone is talking about us in a capacity where we are actually being viewed as, you know, a huge issue. It was phenomenal. Go ahead. Oh, I'm sorry.
Big O 8:58
I know I sent you I see I'm not gonna hold it against you. Now. One of the things that I did want to ask you about your was your recent Washington Post article. I know that you writing that article, and people reading it across DC and academia and probably in on Main Street to read it and got butthurt because the whole idea of going to college, not it not shrinking the wealth gap between black America maybe college isn't the answer.
Dorothy A. Brown 9:31
Right. What blew you away?
Big O 9:33
Let me let me take a step back. You are in a professional. You have achieved a lot you are part of academia. You are in the elite stratosphere, as many people would probably say, and you've gone to college you have multiple druggies. How dare you to say that college isn't the one
Big EL 9:57
mitigating
Big O 10:00
shrink the wealth gap. What would you say to people that might have that question for you?
Dorothy A. Brown 10:03
Well, what I say is the way we do college the way black Americans do college is very different than the way white Americans do college. And when we talk about debt forgiveness, what most people are talking about is the way white people do college. Okay, so the impetus for me doing that Washington Post piece was to help folks who were talking about, well, what would be the benefit of debt forgiveness? help them understand it would mean the world for black Americans who went to college and you don't know that right. So let me explain it to you. But I will tell you this, in writing this book, the college chapter, so that op ed came out of the college chapter and it came out of the jobs chapter. Writing the college chapter, made me almost stop writing the book. Wow. When I came across this statistic that said, 60% of black students on college do not graduate. I shut the laptop. I said, that's it. I'm done. I'm not finished this damn book, I don't care. I left the house, I went to the beach, I said, I don't go back home. I don't ever have to stay at the beach. Three hours later, I said, Okay, you have to go back home. You cannot live on the beach. But you don't have to read anything else tonight. Tonight, you're going to go home, you're going to cook a nice meal, and you're gonna watch TV and you're not gonna do any of this crap. But tomorrow. me out. It just took me out.
Unknown Speaker 11:45
Um,
Dorothy A. Brown 11:47
so yeah, I get it. It's it's like 60% of black students don't graduate, but they leave with debt. And because they don't graduate, they don't qualify for that higher paying job. That is the promise of a college degree. You know, putting aside the racist labor market that doesn't even get a black guy from Harvard, the same thing as white peers get. You it's just messed up. So this whole conversation about debt forgiveness, that ignores the experiences of black Americans is what led me to that op ed. And it's something I feel pretty strongly about.
Unknown Speaker 12:27
No, we are with 100% 100%.
Big O 12:31
Now, the question that I have now, is that, given what we believe the Biden administration is moving towards what outside of your research out of state outside of the statistics that you've provided? What else would you suggest to the by the administration to try and get this across the finish line?
Dorothy A. Brown 12:52
Well, you know, the executive, it's my understanding that he has the power to forgive $50,000 of student debt. And he has said he's not going over 10,000. And when he said, He's not going over 10,000, he basically said something really fascinating. He said, Well, because you know, you don't want to reward people who will forgive that for people went to Harvard or Penn. And his one of his children went to Penn. And I'm thinking because you're thinking about your white kids. That's, you know, black people that go to Harvard, they still have a hard time in the labor market. It's not the same thing. And black people who go to Harvard or Yale or Penn have higher graduation rates, there's no 60% drop out. So you know, there's this knee jerk reaction that elite institutions are like the wrong we should not be helping people who go there because they're set for life. No, they're not. No, they're not. The research shows that when they take their degrees, which are more likely to come with debt than their white peers, and they take it into the labor market, labor market discriminates against them, even when they go to Harvard, Yale or Penn. So this idea that they shouldn't get debt forgiveness, because they went to an elite law school misses the point of systemic racism in America.
Big O 14:16
My wife did attend Georgetown, and I'm telling tales out of school telling her business, but we know the amount of debt that we have between the both of us trying to get through. So when we initially heard this initiative to try and forgive $50,000 worth of student loan, we're like, okay, that's what's up. And then and then the tone started to slowly change. And I was like, okay, we're, we're on that bus again. Let's
Big EL 14:39
listen.
Big O 14:40
Let's strap up and get ready for this nonsense. Go ahead. Well,
Big EL 14:44
in your book, you talk about the percentage of white people and black people who own their homes. Yes, I think it was like 73 73% of white folks own their homes and yes, less than 45 black.
Dorothy A. Brown 14:58
Absolutely. That's right.
Big EL 14:59
How are the tax code implicated in that? How does that because it blows my mind because again, that's another one of those things. black folks, we rent too much. We should be trying to buy our homes and I'm trying to wrap my mind around how taxes are involved in that area.
Dorothy A. Brown 15:16
So first, if you have tax subsidies for homeownership, which we have, you are already by design helping more white people than black people, because the majority of white people own homes and the majority of black people are renters. Okay. So the minute you have tax subsidies for homeownership, okay, you help the white people. Okay. Now let's move to Yes. But Dorothy, surely once a black becomes a black American becomes a homeowner. It's the same thing. No, it ain't. That's the problem. So now we're going to talk about what happens when you sell your house. When you sell your house, you can sell it for more money than you paid. Yay, at which point you have a gain. And the law says if you're married half a million dollars of gain, you can get tax free. Okay, if you're single $250,000. Okay. If you sell your home at a loss, no tax break for you, Jesus. Okay, now, well, Dorothy, someone would say, well, what's the problem? When black people sell their house for a game? They get a tax free game just like white people? Yeah, the problem is, we live in different neighborhoods, why homeowners tend to live in all white neighborhoods with very few black Americans. Black homeowners tend to live in racially diverse neighborhoods, or all black neighborhoods. And guess what? White people don't want to live in those racially diverse or all black neighborhoods, which means the value of homes in all white neighborhoods is much higher. For when black people sell their homes, they're more likely to sell for a lower gain than their white peers. But it gets worse. Black Americans who are homeowners are more likely to sell their home for a loss. And there's no tax break associated with a loss. So when people talk about, oh, we just need to increase the homeownership rate because this will fix the racial wealth gap. It's like a no now, black homeowners have a higher net worth than black renters. Absolutely true. Sure. But the you're not gonna solve the racial wealth gap with black people buying homes because we live in different neighborhoods. The only way that would solve the racial wealth gap is if we guaranteed the white rate of return to black homeowners. Yeah, that's, that's Yeah. Okay. Other than that, and you know, my argument is, and, you know, I learned about this as I was doing research for an article while I was selling my home in a racially diverse neighborhood. And my house wouldn't sell. And I'm like, What? And then I'm reading this, I'm
Unknown Speaker 18:02
like, Oh, crap, that's what it is.
Dorothy A. Brown 18:06
Because I I consciously bought on a neighborhood with other black people. Well, they're gonna cost you, right. So I learned and, you know, I've never looked at homeownership the same way so I live in Atlanta, but I don't own an Atlanta. I own a Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts, okay. Because it's really wise. But in the summer is really black. Oh, yes. My friend. Oh. I call it the black mecca of a north. Okay. In the summer, there's a lot of black folks up there. So I feel very comfortable. But I you know, I learned homeownership because I want to live as around other black people. Oh, if you do that, it means your home isn't going to be this great financial investment. But I also say then don't be house poor, right. Don't put all your money in a house. Don't take out a home equity loan, whatever you do on the
Unknown Speaker 19:07
house. Okay.
Big EL 19:09
Great. Give
Big O 19:12
me okay. I told my mom about you don't stop. So I'm looking at I'm listening to NPR actually, not even 10 minutes ago, and they're talking about the largest portion of wealth in the black community is in their homes is in homes. Yeah. And how home ownership over the past almost 20 years in black communities or for black America has decreased. So how can you gain wealth if you're not going to buy one buy a home and then put value into the home to increase its equity.
Dorothy A. Brown 19:43
So Okay, so first. First, what you want to do so as I said before, black homeowners have more wealth than black renters. So it's not that You shouldn't be a homeowner, you should be an intentional homeowner. So if you buy in a racially diverse or all black neighborhood, you don't want to take out a home equity loan, because you are going to minimize potential gain that you might get on sale, and it may wind up causing you a loss. So I'm not saying don't put money into your house, just don't take out home equity loans, like you would if you lived in an all white neighborhood. property is continuing continuing to appreciate Exactly. So this idea, and yes, it's true. Most black wealth is in our homes, which is part of why we have this racial wealth gap. The system is designed to screw us right the system for building wealth, the only if you want to build wealth and have your home be a good financial investment, then you buy any all white neighborhood. But here's the problem. When you buy an all white neighborhood, your neighbors will call the cops on you. If you got kids, the teachers are going to target your kids and you know and expel them because their disciplinary problems, know what every other white kid does when they get out and try to make right so you have what I call some racism triage to go through when it'll be a good financial investment. On the other hand, it's like no, I want to live with my people. So I have to deal with this crap. But I recognize that means I can't buy at the top of my budget, I need to save money to put in my retirement account to maybe start a college savings account for my child to put some in the stock market. Because what I say and of course is requires you to have some money, right? And with extra taxes, black people are paying, it's not a whole lot of money that I have. But if there is the reason I push investing in the stock market is because homeownership is raced. There's no race stocks, there is no stock that all white people don't want to buy, because black people are buying it. The price of the stock market is what the price is. And if you are a shareholder, you have a right to get every dividend that every other member of your class of shareholder has. So you know it Yes, it's risky. So you don't put your last dollar in it. But you do, you should put something in it because over time, the stock market is outperformed homeownership. So it's something to think about, but we you know, we have this narrative. If you buy a home, you've gotten into the American dream, and you're done. And I'm like, that's true. If you're white, if you're black, it's not true. If you're black, we have to be more intentional. We have to be more cautious. We have to think about what what neighborhood I'm gonna buy it if I buy in this neighborhood, how much do I want to spend and what do I it's it's just a hassle and a half and tax law by subsidizing homeownership implicates the federal government in this racist homeownership system. So my solution is get the federal government out of it. You know, more tax subsidies for homeownership Forget it.
Unknown Speaker 23:11
Really, yeah,
Dorothy A. Brown 23:12
it's racist as hell Stop it.
Big O 23:18
I'm, I'm looking at my I'm trying, I'm trying to balance my situation and everything that you've just been saying, and it's really been a gut punch outside of just like I said, The Washington Post article, your book is also dude. He wants to take credit, he wants to take so much credit. I love it. He actually, he actually did a good job.
But I'm looking at it in its totality. And it's,
Dorothy A. Brown 23:45
you make depressing
Big O 23:47
you make it? You make it seem so I'm not gonna lie to you. I talked to a couple of friends before we started the show. And I told him that we were going to have you on. And we talked about a couple of portions in the book about how marriage in particular how that works out in terms of economic balance for for black America. Yeah. And once again, you got a lot of people butthurt they were like, okay, God, dad, Professor brown wants to get married,
Dorothy A. Brown 24:11
even like what's going on? I had a student once say that, Professor Brown, what advice do you have? And I'm like, I'm not gonna have you go home and tell your mama, I told you. What I'm saying is like, get married on New Year's Eve get married on New Year's Day. Okay. That's all I'm saying.
Big EL 24:33
Go ahead. No, because the marriage component was huge to me. But I want to talk about the continue to talk about the housing aspect. Yes, I think that is major. In your book, you talk about government approved discrimination, essentially, you talk about redlining. But there's a third thing that you mentioned that you bring up that the political left fails to acknowledge. You want to talk a little bit about that part right?
Dorothy A. Brown 25:00
Yeah, it's the 21st century racism exhibited by white Americans who don't want to live in neighborhoods with too many black people. And they have 100 excuses. So, you know, when I think about the reception my scholarship got from white tax academics. The piece of scholarship that got the most pushback was the homeownership piece. Hey, did it because it implicated them for their racist behavior, because see these white, quote unquote, progressive law professors, they live in all white neighborhoods, but no blending with no black neighbors. And they're like, well, well, it's not race. It's really not racist. It's Well, duh, wealth is race. But I digress. Well, it's not that we really don't want to live around black people. It's, it's, we don't want our property values to fall. Okay. I'm a black homeowner. And what you're saying to me is, you your behavior is hurting the value of my home. If you're saying I'm not really racist, but I'm acting like a real racist. I don't really care. This is not helping me. So that was the most pushback and it's the left, right. You know, I will tell you as someone who's been a law professor for almost 30 years, the legal Academy law professors are not left when it comes to race. They are racist as hell, okay, excuse me, can racist as hell. But here's the thing. Know how good they are on race. Okay, that's the thing. I have somebody on Twitter yesterday say to me that he was good on this because he read the boys. Oh, which really? Doesn't matter. Because you know, we didn't read it. He's like, No, I'm one of the good ones. I've read the book, dude. Dude, sit down. But that's the attitude. These people know how good they are on race. So when I challenge them, where they live, literally, they lose their minds. It got to the point where I say to myself, okay, how many minutes before somebody loses their loses their mind and says something really stupid, because it usually was like five minutes into the q&a. I'm just really just flabbergasted not necessarily because it is impossible. But you know, you have this narrative in America especially.
Big O 27:34
Far, far to the left, like, we got to stop our kids from going to these radicalizing institutions all because they're going to go there. And you're going to see them burning their bras in the street and all that other nonsense again,
Dorothy A. Brown 27:45
and whenever they're left on at eight race, that's why they're so white. Right? They're very white. Their faculties are very white, their student bodies have very few black students. It's like, they there. That's the myth. That's why the left doesn't look at themselves as to how they could be part of the problem, because they know their hearts. And they know Wait, my favorite, my favorite? I don't see color. Yeah, Jesus, which point I go, when was the last time you went to the eye doctor? Was there something wrong? Okay. Yeah.
Big O 28:22
Do you expect to get a lot of pushback from the Biden administration? Because I know that I've been as as we were preparing for the show. I've seen some articles and heard a lot of voices. And folks are like this. Dr. Brown, she's a handful. Well, I don't know. I don't know what we got to do with her. Do you expect to be involved in the process of moving this racial wealth gap or closing this racial wealth gap?
Dorothy A. Brown 28:47
You know, unfortunately, the Biden ministration has put into the Treasury Department, which deals with tax laws, white academics, who don't know anything about systemic racism and 10. But like we said before, just now, but they're left and they think they're progressive. In fact, the argument I got into on Twitter yesterday was precisely this point. It was about the Biden administration personnel and Treasury, ignoring race when they could have done better. And one of my colleagues, Steven dean at Brooklyn law school, tweeted about it. And this white guy at UC Irvine basically says, I don't think it's anti black and I jump in and say, Excuse me, do you think you're the expert on what anti black is? And he basically said, Yeah, he was because he read the boys and other stuff. I'm like, I can't even with you. Right. I can't even with you. So I think that the left Pete the white left tax professors in Treasury are dug in. They know their hearts, they know they're good. The fact that they have zero track record on race and tax is really around relevant. So I will tell you I've had more of a positive reception out of Congress. I testified before the Senate Finance Committee last month and next month next week, I'm testifying before the Joint Economic Committee. I've had conversations with staff. Congress seems interested in doing something and the Biden administration in Treasury, they seem interested in talking, not doing and my theory is, I'm a tenured full professor, so I can talk to him. And what I'm gonna talk about is how y'all ain't doing nothing other than talking.
Big EL 30:38
But so so what do you think? Because in your book, you speak about reparations? Yeah, it's an reparations and incredibly trendy now everybody in their mom is talking about it. Most don't have a historical analysis of it a proper historical analysis of it. But you mentioned reparations in a taxing type of way. Can you share a little bit more about that, please?
Dorothy A. Brown 31:01
Yes, so I wrote the book. And in the book, and each chapter, the five chapters, I show how black Americans pay higher taxes than white Americans. So even if we change the tax code tomorrow, we still need to compensate black Americans for paying higher taxes for the last few decades. So my response was to come up with a recommend a reparations tax credit, which would be a tax credit for every black person, every black taxpayer, because we paid higher taxes. Now, I'm also a law professor. So I know the Supreme Court's not gonna find that constitutional. So I say my next best alternative is a wealth tax credit, which would apply to every taxpayer and a household with below median wealth, which is going to disproportionately benefit black Americans because of the racial wealth gap. So it's the it's the second best alternative, but it would also benefit white Americans and Latin x Americans and Asian Americans and indigenous for everybody in below median wealth. So, but but there ought to be compensation for black Americans who paid higher taxes. That's because the government mandated them. Right. That's like why we should have reparations. So that's where it comes up in the book in the form of a recommend reparations, tax credit.
Big O 32:26
I know that you've already discussed or gave us some insight to the difficulties in writing the book, especially writing a portion about starting to reconsider. We my wife and I have what a 529. And I'm like, I don't know, but anyway,
Dorothy A. Brown 32:41
yeah, my 29 good. Really, okay, putting in the 529 is to get your kids out of college without debt or with as little debt as possible. That's the goal, so that they can start more fresh, right. That's the goal. And that's what 529 will help you do.
Big O 33:06
So my question to you is what has been probably the most difficult part of, of assembling this book? Yeah.
Dorothy A. Brown 33:15
The most, okay. The most difficult part was the day I found out the IRS didn't publish statistics by race. Okay, once I'm like, Damn, I have to do this myself. Then it was getting an agent, right? That look, I'm writing about tax. Yeah. Yeah. For general audience. Do you know how many rejections I got? Look, I could wallpaper my apartment with the rejections I got from agents. I was really lucky. really lucky. I have like the world's best agent. And she was my this is a great story. She was my first choice. Aliyah Hannah Habib. She was my first choice. Because I said to myself, publishing industry is white. I'm writing a direct. I'm writing a book that is direct on race, and that's a polite way to put it right. It's direct. So I said, I need an agent who can handle working with someone who is very direct on race, who is writing a book that has an agent who is direct on race, Nicole, Hannah Jones. So I said who is Nicole Hannah Jones is agent Ileana Habib. So I decided I decided I wanted her to be my agent. So I sent her an email as elements of a proposal. And I said that proposal I'm all excited because now I don't think it's gonna fit. But she was very polite, and she rejected me and this was like, April, I spent the entire summer sending out emails would you be my agent and getting rejections? Fast forward to August? I'm sitting on my couch and I'm literally in tears. I'm like, Am I not going to have this book? Not gonna be the keywords for a general audience. It wasn't for academics. I want people like you to read it if it wasn't for academic. I'm like, well, am I wrong? Is the book not good? I mean, I know I need help. I just need somebody to help. And one of my friends said, Dorothy, it's gonna, it's gonna come, you just need to have pages. So I was at the point where I felt if I got one more piece of rejection, I probably stop. So I said, I'm not gonna send it any more emails, because I can't handle any more rejection right now. I'm just gonna keep working on chapters on the book. So fans for its September, I come out of class and I get an email from Aaliyah. And she says, Dorothy, I can't stop thinking about your book. I've never done this before. But I think I have an idea for us to move forward. You'd be interested in a conversation. Well, after I fill out my chair. Yeah. And we talked and the rest is history. So she signed me up. And we started working on a proposal. And yes, she repeated this read because it needed work. I knew this. But she's wonderful. And one day, she's out walking a dog. So this is the fall of 2017. She's walking a dog, and she gets the idea because everybody's talking about the Trump tax cuts. She said, we have to get your proposal in front of their desk the first week of December. And we both worked like mad people and got it in and I got the book deal with crown and I got the world's best editor with Emma Berry. And it all worked. But the hardest part, I'd say, was getting that agent, because without the agent, you can't get publishers talk to you. Wow. And and I realized how many really good books never make it to print. Because they can't find the connection with the agent. It was, it was a humbling experience to put it politely.
Big EL 36:54
I'm so glad this was an academic book. Not only that, academic books is expensive as hell.
Dorothy A. Brown 37:03
Listen, it sells three copies my mother's.
Big EL 37:10
You mentioned the Trump tax cut. I know a lot of my black friends. Hi, oh, we're very excited about that tax cut. They were like, Oh my god, this is gonna be so beneficial. This is gonna help us. Stop.
Big O 37:25
Let me make sure that I clear this up. This, that tax cut hurt me very, very much very badly. So go ahead. elegante your shenanigans. Okay.
Big EL 37:36
So would you tell Shawn, why that tax cut hurt him so badly?
Dorothy A. Brown 37:41
Well, you know, not knowing his personal tax. Trump's tax cuts were designed to help like the richest 1% of Americans. Okay, that's not showing go to Georgetown. Georgetown.
Big EL 38:09
Okay, so
Big O 38:12
I know that your academic life has changed. Since writing this book, your colleagues got to give you a little bit got to give you a little bit of the juice when you walk by because you, you've gotten Fords from Eddie glaude and Abraham Kennedy and all these other folks, they have to be looking at you with decide I now after you've written this book, right?
Dorothy A. Brown 38:32
We're in a pandemic, I see my colleagues. I don't know when okay. Praise God. They may be given somebody or they may be given my picture side I but
I will say this, academics tend to be very insecure and petty people. So you can fill in the blanks, right? So, you know, the good news is, we're in a pandemic,
Big O 39:05
when you're trying to impart this type of information on your students, because I'm assuming that a little bit of Miss Brown has to come out when you're teaching your students, right, yes. How did they receive it?
Dorothy A. Brown 39:16
You know, most of them receive it well, every now and then I'll get a student. She's pushing an agenda. She's trying it, you know, and I'm like, whatever. It's fine, right? But most students say, I never thought about this. Tell me more. In fact, one of my students from last semester, set up a zoom call with me after class was over to talk about race and tax because he was so intrigued. So I, you know, I find the students are quite open to hearing about it as a general proposition, and they don't, and I talk about it the first day. So the first day attacks and one of my learning objectives for the course is to understand how systemic risk cism plays a role in tax implications, right? So that's what so you know, from if you read my syllabus, right, not all the students do. But if you read my syllabus, you know, it's there. And I say it. On the first day, I give a little mini lecture of how race can come into tax law when it's supposedly race neutral. Why do I do it that way? So you could drop the course if you don't want to hear it, because I'm telling you on day one, we're gonna talk about it. I'm the professor, good luck. If you don't want to hear it, take drop drop the course. But if you stay in, I'm sorry, we're gonna do this. Right. And it's always interesting. Students are very intuitive. Students are very intuitive, because it's so intriguing.